Questions & Answers
2nd part: Initiatic Experiences
vs. Surnatural Experiences.

Q.: All around the world, many people claim to have contact with Christ, the Virgin Mary, the prophets, extra-terrestrials, or even Essenes. What do you think about it? What difference do you make between initiatic experiences and supernatural experiences?

A.: Your question poses a fundamental problem of assimilation with religion and therefore of personal beliefs. But, given your question, you seem to evoke channeling or mediums that have contact with the categories listed. So, I will discard from my answers the few great mystics who fall within the traditional structures of the religion to which they have devoted their lives.

Phosphenism is mainly concerned with reproductive experiences and altered states of consciousness. We do not stop at various visualizations but at feelings and movements much purer than the cinematheque that may appear in your mind. At this level of experience, it virtually eliminates most of the channels or contacts you tell me about.

Q.: Are you saying that there are higher states than the visions or contact manifestations?

A.: Yes, there are levels of experience and I refer you to the various testimonies on my courses and the dialogues of the phosphenists among themselves on my site. You will note that they never believe that they are depositaries of divine or other revelations to bring to all. They experiment, verify and analyze their perceptions in a modified state of consciousness.

In first-level experiences such as lucid dreams, you are confronted with different manifestations of your conscious content. Just because you perceive an angel or a being of light, or Virgo, does not necessarily make it a reality. You dream at night of different men and women and when you wake up you do not tell yourself that you have received a message from them.

The same thought must be held with even more caution when it comes to the area of belief where there is no chance that one may have been an eyewitness to events long ago. Moreover, if you are a little advanced in lucid dreaming, you know how to create and decree the content of the lucid dream. From there, you know that these are phenomena emanating from your consciousness. It becomes difficult for you to believe that the Virgin Mary, Christ, or aliens have come to you.

If you do not know the initiatic truths about the contents of your consciousness, as is largely the case today, you will quickly wander around and believe that you are indeed benefiting from revelations from masters, angels, extra-terrestrials, etc., which are not always true. You then take your dreams for reality.

The great masters of Tibetan Dream Yoga talk about the karmic content of consciousness and do not give much interest to all this cinematic material. The experiences you quote are from all the New Age literature. If you ask the same question to a venerable Buddhist or a lama who specializes in Dream and Sleep Yoga, you will understand that it is of no value to him. They are people who explore the whole range of mental processes and constructions of consciousness. They will give you an answer similar to mine in their own words.

When I was 20 years old, before I knew about Phosphenism, I practiced show hypnosis and therefore immediate hypnosis. Like dreaming, this practice modifies the state of consciousness. If I make you believe in the Virgin Mary or tell you that there is an extra-terrestrial at your side, I can assure you that I can leave such a memory in you that you will be convinced that you have had contact.

In the past magnetizers had noticed that in certain states of magnetization their sensitive subjects suddenly began to experience states of ecstasy and mystical visions. However, there was nothing to justify this, apart from stimulating an area of the brain with a “magnetic” pass. The dreams and visions of some individuals are nothing more than self-suggestion linked to an ability to put themselves in sensitive states.

Q.: All right, I understand what you’re saying, even if I’m not familiar with it. But, I mean, you’re a little bit of a pain on this one.

A.: I’m not, these are facts. The only problem is that nowadays everyone believes anything and everything and people who would be called megalomaniacs or mythomaniacs are now finding their way into spiritual literature because there is a market of readers.

Q.: You’re a bit harsh, but yes, basically you’re quite right. I understand that you don’t seem to give any credit to these experiences.

A.: Yes, and for reasons stemming from my personal practice. I can see very quickly that their stories or their content, apart from being dreamlike and romantic, have no characteristic of what you can experience on your own or in the workshops we run.

Some rules govern certain states and passages from one level of consciousness to another, and strangely enough, I have rarely noted these descriptions of feelings and manifestations in these authors about lucid dreams or astral travel, of which they claim to be “experts”. And then, there are other more personal reasons related to my past relationship with Dr. LEFEBURE that come into play.

Q.: You’re not the type to butter up: you say that “experts” are not experts, even though you yourself have never published about your experiences. Moreover, you talk about “more personal reasons”. Can you enlighten me because you’ve said too much or not enough?

A.: Well, I’m going to do it now, even though I’ve kept silent for more than 40 years. Go back to the 1960s, 1970s. Those were the beginnings of spirituality. The area was rather small, and the works were scarce. Dr. LEFEBURE, through his discoveries, frequented or was invited to various groups at the time. He even had the opportunity to receive people to teach them his techniques and share his discoveries. He did not hesitate to explain by brain physiology that everyone could experience initiatic states.

So, he told me about his past contacts and disappointments with certain individuals whom today enjoy great fame for being bestselling authors over and over again. Others even became gurus of important movements. Therefore, I know who came to learn various clairvoyance or astral travel techniques in private and not collective classes. This has developed my irony and sense of humor despite myself. So, I do not take the content and revelations of their works seriously.

Q.: Keep going, it’s fascinating! Do you have names?

A.: Yes, I have names, but as this is a matter of individual belief level and people are very ticklish about it, I will remain silent. Imagine that I am talking, it’s like shooting down the author or the “guru” adulated by thousands, or even for some of them more than a million readers, not to mention the publishers, the journalists who open their arms wide to them.

You would be a little too shocked and my goal is not to create polemics. Some of them are dead and others don’t even assume that I know. And if they assume, they avoid confrontation. Besides, they never talk about Dr. LEFEBURE and brain physiology. You understand that a debate would soon end in a victory for me. Of course, for some it is only Dr. LEFEBURE’s confidences, others were in our files, but with the NCIL (National Commission on Informatics and Liberty), I had to erase the traces of the latter.

It is therefore a question of belief. To sum up, I know who they are and it was enough for me to have decided out of integrity not to do as they did. It’s my choice but, on a certain level, I don’t regret it. I am following my conscience and I am not lying to anyone. Of course, Dr. LEFEBURE’s work would have been more widely known if I had played the great astral traveler or inspired master in contact with high spiritual hierarchies.

Q.: Yes indeed, you do receive me naturally and you are far from the images that your revelations immediately evoke in me. I don’t see you that way.

A.: Yes, neither do I. So, let me laugh about it and stay in my corner observing how humans prefer to follow rather than check for themselves. So, I discovered a very particular environment that is almost unknown to the reader. Dr. LEFEBURE’s revelations and my own findings have always given me a guideline to keep Phosphenism away from anything that might resemble a “cult” with its “guru”.

I am filled with joy when I read the testimonials of parents or students who have successfully studied or learned through Dr. LEFEBURE’s methods. For me, this is concrete. His discoveries help in the field of pedagogy as he wanted as a school doctor. None of our “experts” can present a similar assessment. It is easy to mislead the reader in the fields of personal development, let’s not even talk about esotericism or initiatory.

Q.: Indeed, your method also touches on initiatic through books and courses on Kundalini, astral travel, or clairvoyance.

A.: Discoveries on cerebral physiology have had developments beyond pedagogy. Spirituality and initiatic procedures have benefited from them. These fields that smell of sulfur for classical science and public opinion are now studied in neuroscience and under a new term which is neurotheology.

Discoveries on modified states of consciousness are progressing, but Dr. LEFEBURE’s work remains innovative in producing real experiments with a minimum of material. I saw from your amazed look that you are unaware of many realities about the “spiritual” or “esoteric” environment.

I am always disappointed when collaborators and phosphenists confirm to me that it’s a “crab basket” behind the positive thoughts and love in the facade. The reality is quite harsh. The fact that 95% of the subjects are sensitive to hypnosis and autosuggestion and therefore to self-deception explains many things.

Q.: 95% of the population?

A.: Yes, 95% of individuals are sensitive to hypnosis, and professionals in sales techniques and neuromarketing are well aware of this. But within that 95%, only less than 10% are capable of entering into very deep states. You seem to be unaware of this, as I can see from your reaction.

This is why in experiments involving lucid dreams and out-of-body activities, it is important to remain “lucid” and pragmatic. You see, in Phosphenism we don’t make things up. We are concrete, we experiment, verify, and control. Dr. LEFEBURE’s work has a concrete aim that is very far removed from the themes on which you asked me about.

Q.: I suppose that aliens and Essenes are on the same level.

A.: I see you coming. You know, the problem of extra-terrestrials has nothing to do with the purpose of Dr. LEFEBURE school. Indeed, collaborators have told me about the great movement, about contact with galactic fraternities, about reptilians. I have never been confronted with anything approaching this, neither through the Phosphenists who are advanced in my knowledge, but it must be said that we are more concerned with astronomy and therefore with projections in space. Even during the naturo-phosphenology courses none of that. It is necessary to believe that we do not impregnate our minds with the right subjects to read.

Dr. LEFEBURE liked to remind us: “He puts into a pump what it’s connected to. If you use a pump to draw water from a well and there’s silt at the bottom, silt will come out at the end of the pump. If there is clear water at the bottom of the well, you will get clear water from your pump. In other words, in my classes, I always insist on studying astronomy for several reasons that would be a bit long to explain now but that you will find by searching the blog.

When you prepare for your vacations, you first choose if you prefer the countryside, the city, the beach, the mountains, etc. and then you study the best way to get there. In experiences it’s a bit the same thing, when you want to live experiences outside any ideological influence, it’s better to crystallize your thinking around astronomy.

Through rhythmo-phosphenic techniques, the levels of consciousness one reaches are still of a much higher order. This propels you well beyond the first layers of consciousness (unconscious and collective unconscious), called the lower astral in esotericism where you are in a plane where you find what you brought there. I have never heard a venerable or authentic swami speak of such things. It would be interesting in the future to make a psychological study to understand the origin of such things.

For the Essenes, yes, it leaves me speechless, it’s brand new. Anyway, the myth has been dismantled. Just read Qumram and the Essenes, the Bursting of a Dogma, a book by André Paul who is the French specialist in the Dead Sea Scrolls. He refutes the Essenes thesis at the origin of Qumran. On the other hand, he explains how the Essene fashion, which brought in a lot of money, came about. Spiritual authors surf with great success in this fashion that I saw being born and evolving as publications came out.

Other authors do show the differences between the behavior of Jesus and that of the Essenes. According to some historians, he is closer to the Jewish Pharisees than to this “group”. Here too the fabrication is going well. All these oddly reincarnated Essenes are unable to teach the prayer techniques of the time with sunrise and sunset, mentioned in the texts. They didn’t have to practice much. So, you understand that I’m not interested. What counts is the practice, not the speculation and the romance.

Q.: But you, Mr. Stiennon, what kind of experience do you have?

A.: That would take far too long to explain, but you can already get a glimpse of it by consulting the Testimonials section of our site. Instead, I will tell you what is within the reach of most phosphenists. As soon as you begin the practice, you get conscious, lucid, and directed dreams fairly quickly. If you browse through the various forums or sites that concern lucid dreaming, you will notice the difficulties expressed by visitors to obtain results.

They try different methods that are quite complicated. For phosphenists, these experiences are common, and they are only the beginning of much deeper experiences: dreams of flight and sometimes erotic dreams with sexual relations, which bring them into a state very close to a form of ecstasy.

When one masters certain techniques, these lucid dreams make it possible to reach what is called in esotericism the “high astral”. At this stage, because there are other superiors, the experiences of our mind merging with, for example, a galaxy or with the atoms of a supernova is something that has no equal on the earthly plane. In the extreme, this is what we are looking for in initiatic experiences and what we might call contact with creation.

Q.: Everything you’re telling me here raises many other questions.

A.: I do not doubt it because your mind is sharpened, but I suggest that you continue this interview at another time and, above all, I invite you to come back often to consult the blog in which I intend to express myself regularly, especially in video.

Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Stiennon.

A.: Your welcome. But I just want to say one last little thing. In traditional structures, we listen to the elders. They make little noise and are often withdrawn. The young people come to them, they listen to them, and the elders then show them. It is also the elders who are asked for advice on all the important things in life as well as spirituality.

It is very surprising to me that people under 40 years of age can act as experts in the spiritual field. They very often give explanations and advice on things that are visibly beyond them. They are even for some spiritual coaches, but it is quickly apparent that their life experience is quite insufficient and that their words lack wisdom. On the other hand, it is enough for me and a few friends to read them to see that they have not experienced anything serious.

If over the years you have acquired a background in various fields, or if you have met the right people, you will quickly spot glaring errors. But people are free to follow whomever they want. As Buddhists would say, it’s a matter of credit. So, it must take a lot of credit to find Phosphenism (laughs). But as we don’t hug in the right way. It rubs egos. Some individuals are so sure of themselves that they come thinking they “deserve” initiation. They forget that in Phosphenism it is the practice that is essential, and it is precisely this practice that will deliver them from “guruing”.

For the rest, I am free to choose who can receive “initiation” and, as far as I can see, many are rather weak. It is like the net and all these coaches and other “guides” under 50 years old: their experience in lucid dreams is close to nothing, so as far as astral travel and Kundalini are concerned, it is only the repetition of past authors who are very often outdated (a snake that bites its tail). A seasoned phosphenist quickly perceives this void of experience.

Funny to see that mothers or ordinary individuals who have reached a certain level in the practice of Phosphenism know more about initiation than many guides, so-called spiritual masters, or self-proclaimed authors. People seem to be in awe as soon as someone presents themselves as “awake” and looks like a swami. This sounds much more like emotional comfort than initiation practice. People expect everything from the “Guru”. So, let’s roll up our sleeves. There are many awake “sleeping” ones.

For me, only one-word counts, it is practice. That doesn’t deceive. In practice, students are confronted with only one reality: the experimentation. Spending hours in lectures is useless. You have to demonstrate what you teach. That’s what phosphenists do: they come and experiment.